Why Apologetics

063 Atheist Problems – Matt Slick TAG

In hopes to encourage and support those who are finding out how stressful and often difficult it is to be an out of the closet Atheist, we shared a bit from our personal lives and invited others to as well.  As always the phone lines were open and we received a phone call from a gentleman who decided that our definition of evolution was wrong because the origin of the word doesn’t have anything to do with biological evolution.  Of course Professor Stephen schooled him and called out his game of semantics.

Could It Be Matt Slick?

Yes, the Matt Slick, founder and CEO of CARM.org.  At some point in the show we received a phone call from “Nathan” a resident of Central Florida.  His command of the English language and his arguments set many of our listeners spidey senses to tingling.  To some his voice was familiar but to others it was his tactics.

His area code didn’t indicate Florida but instead Idaho, specifically Boise; home city for the CARM organization and home to Mr. Matt Slick.  I felt I’d come to a gun fight with a dull knife.  I am not well versed in Apologetics nor Counter Apologetics and felt overwhelmed a bit.  Thankfully Professor Stephen is much more versed in the subject and held his ground.

A simplified version of this Transcendental Argument (TAG) is that because logic exists, therefore God.  When I’ve encountered Christian’s using these tired arguments I often step back and ask,

“Let’s assume you are 100% correct, that without God we wouldn’t have logic, or any of the myriad of other arguments trotted out by creationists, let’s say you can prove this with certainty.  At the end of the day, you have everything left to prove, everything left ahead of you.  Which God?  Your God or can I pick from any number of the Gods that are worshipped today?”

This is where we find Presuppositionalists apologetics.  It’s the art of presupposing God exists from the beginning.  But first they must define God and then they must prove God.  Yet none of the Christian Apologists can do this.  They rely heavily on confusing and overwhelming their opponents with big words and previously argued and debunked Apologetic arguments and fallacies.

To me this can all be cured, it can be simplified easily.  If your God is real then prove it.  Provide the evidence.  Where else in life do we see apologetics?  I know of nowhere else.  Why does religion require this?  Well because they stand on shaky ground, they have zero evidence for their beliefs, they will not argue from faith as this would count them with the sheepish non-thinkers and because it’s all they have.  At first glance these arguments seem to be intellectually honest, they use big words, they often employ many logical bits, but when added up, there’s nothing.

If it was Mr. Slick who joined us, thank you.  If anything at all you served to boost my ego.  I’ve listened to you and Matt Dillahunty and your debate with Dan Barker (Co-President of FFRF.org) and I’m no match for your level of apologetics, but if you would ever like to discuss the evidence for your God without employing the mind numbing apologetics, feel free to call in or contact us anytime.


Jim Dobler, one of our Patrons who supports the show won the painting of JT Eberhard by the artist Adam Brown.  Congratulations Jim and and thank you for supporting our efforts in raising funds to feed the inner city school children in Albuquerque, NM – the Highland Humanists.  If you would like to help them reach their goal, please donate here: AOA.fm/foodforthem

Professor Stephen graciously shortened his Woo Woo Science Segment due to the callers this week, all of which I’m thankful for.

Yes, we are still attempting to raise the funds in order to supply the FFRF memberships to those who can’t afford it right now.  Please help us, in what I believe is our biggest asset in the movement – The Freedom From Religion Foundation.  http://aoa.fm/joinffrf


Rant Script

I’m going to give you a pass.  For the next 15 minutes or so, there is no judgement.  Specifically I speak about judgement from on high.  You must consider that your God gave you a brain for a reason and it certainly couldn’t be just for weight.


He must have given you reasoning skills for a reason, he must have wanted you to use logic and deduction.  Why else would he give you this fancy  brain.  For the next few minutes, all sins are upon me.  Let’s say I’ll take a double or triple dose of hellfire for your benefit and that you for this moment get a pass to use that god given brain for all intensive purposes, – exactly what it’s there for.


I know you feel guilt for even considering the possibilities that I will encourage, but for this moment, out of your entire life, Surely your God will understand if you stop and think, you actually use that big bundle of nerves, synapses, and goo that is your brain.


And if you really are struggling with this idea of thought freedom, think on this for just a second.  You believe you worship the correct God.  Over 7 Billion people on the planet and you are lucky enough to be counted in the 20 or so percent that worship the correct God.  But surely you know that if the other 80% don’t use their brains, as god intended, just as I’m asking here now of you…. then they will never know the truth and will suffer eternity for it.


So it stands to reason, that God gave them all brains and it is up to them to use them, to reason and use logic and to question it all.  Right?  Well I’m asking no more of you than you would of the over 5 Billion others who don’t worship your God and instead worship some other.


Fair enough right?


Let’s get started.  I want you to think and reason without the indoctrinated dogma that you’ve become so accustomed to.  Just pretend,  so to speak  – that you are ignorant to it all and are given the case for your God and you must decide if it’s rational and logical to believe based on these things.


Several thousand years ago, after man had been on the earth for over 194,000 years, God decides it’s time he get involved.  Now I’m basing this off of solid facts and mountains of evidence to back it up – that homosapiens have been on this planet for about 200,000 years.


He inspires a man to write down and teach his commands.  Of course it has to have a beginning, so this God tells of creation.


God creates the earth, heavens, stars etc…  He then creates man by not just speaking him into existence, but a very specific method.  He forms him from the dust of the earth.


Unbeknownst to him, this man wouldn’t find a partner among the animal kingdom as it states in this Book of Genesis Chapter 2 verses 18 through 22 so he puts him to sleep and instead of creating a woman from the dust, he takes a rib from this man and creates a woman, a help meet as it were.


He gives them a garden, a perfect place to live free from sin and danger with a couple exceptions.  In the middle of the garden he puts a tree that they are not to partake of it’s fruits and he also puts in a serpent to confuse the innocent and ignorant minds of these two.  So not really a perfect place, but almost.


They not even knowing what sin is, partake of the fruit anyway.  They are kicked out of this almost perfect place and are punished with a curses that will extend forever throughout all generations to come.  So basically he punishes the entirety of mankind for the actions of two people.


These two have children and one of the children grows crops and the other raises animals.  This God commands they each give of their first crops, which they graciously do as a sacrifice to God.


We are to assume that God desired and commanded that perfectly good wheat crops and perfectly good baby lambs are to be slaughtered, not eaten and instead burnt as an offering to God.


But God is pissed at one of the children because he only brought grains while the other brought baby lambs.  Later we learn that God loves the smell of their flesh as it rises into his nostrils, but at this time we aren’t given that info.


So the one brother, the grain farmer kills the sheep farmer.  He is forced by God to leave but only after he marks him somehow so everyone will know he is a murderer.  The mark assumed a darker skin color and the antagonist for thousands of years of slavery and racism.


Well this one son, he goes to the land of Nod where he meets a wife.  It doesn’t say if this was a cousin or a sister but it certainly was an incestual relationship.


Humans become so bad that God wishes he’d never made them and pains for his mistake.  Yes, god admits to making a mistake.


To fix things, he decides to select the only righteous family in the entire world, a drunkard named Noah, his wife and their sons and wives; and kill the rest.  A total of 8 people he found worthy of saving.


So out of the entire population, tens of thousands of which we can safely assume were babies and children.  Many pregnant women with the unborn, many handicapped and elderly, he drowns them all.


Instead of blinking them out of existence, he decides to torture them until death.


This righteous family with a drunk for a patriarch is all that’s left and are forced to have sex with their children and children’s children in order to re populate the earth.  But one son, before he’s given an opportunity, for the crime of finding his father naked and drunk is punished for eternity with a mark upon his skin.


This must be the dark skinned people who would serve at the feet of white people for millennia to come.


But shit hits the fan so to speak and over 2 million wholly chosen people are later captured and enslaved by the Egyptians.  But God sends a man, Moses to rescue them.


And just as the Egyptian king agrees to let them all go, God hardens his heart and makes them stay.


Over the next while, God punishes the king by killing every animal in the country.  Then to make matters worse he gives all the dead animals boils.  And to show his strength again, he kills them all again.  All in all he killed the animals, the same animals three times.  And although the king agrees to free the slaves, God stops him and hardens his heart again and so God kills all first born children.  Tens of thousands of innocent people killed and if it wasn’t for lambs blood on the doors of the chosen peoples houses, god would have killed their children too, you know, just by accident.  You can get wrapped up in a good murder spree and start killing the wrong children, but lambs blood makes a great reminder.


God loves his chosen people and he commands that they kill neighboring villages but he makes some very specific rules of war.  He demands they keep alive all the virgin women for themselves as a kind reward for their efforts in battle.


God has many prophets over the years, many chosen men to whom he favors.  One man, elijah a bald headed prophet is walking and some children tease him about being bald.  God sends wild bears from the woods to kill the children. 42 little children killed by bears for daring to call the prophet bald.


I have more so bear with me please.


There was a godly man named Job, he was perfect in the sight of your God.  But during a meeting, God asks Satan to destroy all Job had.  Satan kills his children, his wife and his animals and then gives Job boils from head to toe.  It’s the only time in the Bible where Satan kills.  He kills 10 people but only at the encouragement and behest of God.


God finds two cities full of evilness and decides to destroy the two cities but he first must warn the only Godly and worthy family to leave at once.  So God sends two angels to warn Lot, his wife and two daughters.  Well the townspeople see the angels enter Lot’s house and they demand he send the angels out so they can rape them.


Lot being a godly man, a moral and ethical man says no and instead says, here’s my two virgin daughters, have them instead and leave my angel guests alone.


It works and they escape the following day but in opposition to what God commanded, lot’s wife was turned to a pillar of salt for the huge crime of turning her head to see the destruction of the city.


Lot and his two daughters seek shelter in a cave where they get their father drunk and rape him so they can become pregnant.


David, a man after God’s own heart as stated in the bible, kills his fuck buddy’s husband.

Abraham the father of the gospels, the father of Christianity, Judaism and Islam married his sister but gave her to a king to fuck because he was so righteous.


The prophet moses was brought a man found to be picking up sticks on the one day a week that god demands you do absolutely nothing but worship him and being semi moral doesn’t want to kill the man as it is written in scripture.  So he asks god, but God being a man of principals says, Kill that evil fuck for picking up sticks.


Moses obeys.


God finds the world full of sin again and decides to impregnate a virgin woman who was already committed to marriage.  He gets her pregnant so he, God, can be born on earth.  For over 30 years the Bible is silent on this God child incarnate but he appears in his 30’s to tell everyone to follow him and it would be the only way to return to heaven.


He demands all to hate their fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers, to sell all they have, to kill unbelievers and to follow him.


He performed some miracles, like healing a blind man.  Why he didn’t cure blindness all together, we aren’t told.  But this Jesus, this God incarnate tells you to not ever protect yourselves but instead if you are getting beat, to take it like a man.  He tells his closest followers, his apostles that he will be killed but will return before they see death.

That was over 2,000 years ago according to the timeline given by the bible.


So in order to fix the world of it’s sinful ways, God becomes father to himself and then sacrifices himself to himself to save us from himself.  He’s made a plan for everyone, if you believe a certain way, the right way, which is still very much debated by his followers, you can avoid the eternal fires of hell and worship him forever in a secret invisible place.


His most wordy and most prolific follower, Paul, who never met him and never mentions him as ever being on the earth, writes laws and commands including that women should shut the fuck up and listen to their men.


But before God incarnate left the earth, he not once but over 6 times explains that all the laws written are to be followed.  Not just the 10 commandments, but all 613 laws.  Including the one that demands you kill those found to be working on the Sabbath.


In this, what should be a perfect book given by God, it tells how to cast out demons that cause blindness and disability of all sorts.  Yet in over 2000 years, not one demonstrable case has been shown.


Almost 2 Billion Christians and not one fucking miracle to show for it.  And the truth is, you most likely wouldn’t believe any of this as an adult if it wasn’t for the heavy indoctrinations from your family and society.

It’s simple really.  had you been born in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, you’d most likely be Muslim and had you been born in India, you’d most likely be Hindu.


I beg that you would consider it all.  I beg that you wouldn’t take my word for it, nor the word of those in the Jesus fan club, who are equally indoctrinated, but instead read the Bible.  Read it from cover to cover.


Find within it’s pages a God who is jealous, who thinks that other gods exist, who is threatened by their presence, a god who condones slavery, he condones rape and torture, he encourages incest, murder and genocide, your God.  Yes, your God.  All this time you thought him moral but it is the opposite.  You are moral, it is you who decides which scripture, which commands to ignore while accepting those that already fit your moral ideologies.


I could give you a sales pitch on the joy that comes after you realize it’s all fiction, but instead I encourage you to find truth.  No matter how painful it may seem, no matter how wrong you feel, the truth is amazing.  the truth will set you free and the truth will help humanity.


Doubt and questioning is not a sin.  If I’m wrong, wouldn’t your God respect someone who believes after careful examination rather than one that is only counted among the sheep who follow blindly?  If he is moral, then yes – A moral god would respect the use of reason and logic rather than blind faith.  After all, blind faith is what gets you millions of Hindus worshipping false gods, Almost 2 billion muslims worshiping false prophets and millions upon millions of others who’s indoctrination include belief in one of the hundreds of other Gods currently worshipped.


It’s up to you now.  As for me and my fellow free thinkers, we will continue to mock and ridicule the unintelligible.  Fuck religion and fuck those who chose to follow it blindly.  Your faith is not respectable, it’s abhorrent and it’s use – is –  what fucks us all.



2 thoughts on “063 Atheist Problems – Matt Slick TAG”

  1. Just listened to you last show with the apologetic caller at the end of the episode. It seems like he is a follower of Alvin Plantiga, Professor of Philosophy Emeritus at Notre Dame. Saint Alvin has what I call the Fishbowl theory in that you can be a fish in the bowl, use all the science you want to accurately describe the space you live in, but you can never know the outside world because of your circumstances. Hence a god can exist outside of that fishbowl, but you could never prove it with your worldview. That is a very simplistic way of describing it, but I urge you to read Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, and Naturalism. This seems like what your caller was cribbing from. Philosophical arguments like this only seek to be consistent to be compelling, and in order for this argument to work, Plantinga has to concede that “supernatural” divine things can occur every once in a while. Then somehow he swings it to make Christianity true. Its a ridiculous argument, but he only strives to be consistent using logical argument. There are many blogs and posts that tear apart this argument like this one http://www.uncrediblehallq.net/2011/12/12/why-alvin-plantingas-ontological-argument-isnt-even-halfway-good/. Your caller made all kinds of weird claims, but his biggest is leading the witness. He started with a claim that either a god exists or “he” doesn’t and you guys fell for it. Why only one god? why not a creature that is not intelligent, lives outside of space and time, and every time it excretes a universe is created? His rebuttal of the flying spaghetti monster is not valid either, his view of pasta to a creature that exists outside of space and time is no more or less valid than a god with a penis. Pasta can be viewed as a limitation of our language to describe the celestial being that is the FSM, it does not literally have to be pasta just as Yahweh does not literally have to have a penis to be called “He”. Philosophically, once you allow the “divine”, whatever that is, all bets are off. Now you just have to strive to be consistent. But once laws of physics can be manipulated by a being or beings willy nilly, anything can be true, which Plantinga never addresses. You guys sounded a little out of your depth because your caller’s arguments don’t have to rely on facts, and he rejects the idea that empirical evidence using the scientific method would actually work, since this creature exists outside the realm of space time and the laws of physics, and Plantinga also is a believer of this. Your caller also never explained why he felt the way he did, I can only speculate he did some research and found Saint Alvin. Anyway should he call again, bone up on Saint Alvin and why his argument is unsatisfying. Love your show and keep up the good work. I will keep a chilled Jack Daniels on the patio for you.
    Jack in Columbus OH.

  2. Aargh! Please, if you are going to entertain apologetic callers, please become familiar with the rhetorical chicanery of the TAG argument. I think you mostly found your way in the end, but the falicies of this argument need to be called out AS THE PREMISES ARE PROPOSED. If you allow the false premises to be asserted the remainder of the conversation will be nothing than an laborious exercise in obfuscation and slight of hand.

    If you are going to present the atheist position as a rational conclusion you must be able to demonstrate that fact.

    This is the first episode I’ve encountered from you guys. I’ve subscribed and am definitely looking forward to listening to more.

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